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CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000)

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CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000) - Page 2 Empty Re: CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000)

Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:36 pm
Sorry buddy but nice try ! no free lunches Very Happy

About helping everyone and conclusions etc, best is for everyone to forget it. forget about AGMS and LOAN / PE deals etc. Then no conclusions noh ?

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Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:13 pm
VALUE / SLSTOCK or anyone else. i have one more question.
Since VALUE so correctly pointed out the accounting for RIT's Buki stake, and the EPS Calculation considering OCI, is this a fair method, i ask ?

On one hand, RIT does not get to book the profit on the price movement of its Buki shares as EPS. On the other hand, it also does not get to account for 20 % of BUKI's profit as an associate holding 20% equity should. (because the Boards of RIT and BUKI are different and their is no control). Is this fair ?

if you think its unfair and does not give a fair and accurate picture of RIT, CINV & GUAR Earnings, you are correct. Please also google, refer Warren Buffets concept of "Look Through Earnings". and let me know what you think.
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CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000) - Page 2 Empty Re: CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000)

Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:15 pm
VALUE / SLSTOCK or anyone else. i have one more question.
Since VALUE so correctly pointed out the accounting for RIT's Buki stake, and the EPS Calculation considering OCI, is this a fair method, i ask ?

On one hand, RIT does not get to book the profit on the price movement of its Buki shares as EPS. On the other hand, it also does not get to account for 20 % of BUKI's profit as an associate holding 20% equity should. (because the Boards of RIT and BUKI are different and their is no control). Is this fair ?

if you think its unfair and does not give a fair and accurate picture of RIT, CINV & GUAR Earnings, you are correct. Please also google, refer Warren Buffets concept of "Look Through Earnings". and let me know what you think.
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CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000) - Page 2 Empty Re: CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000)

Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:03 am
Personally, I will not bother too much about such gains recorded. Ultimately, unless there is a chance of something to flow through to the shareholder, it is not going to make a difference. If some cash proceeds will be received/improvement in business that will result in distributions, it does not change anything to me. But if the price is at extremely deep discount it will adjust somewhat - probably has? Unless a divesture is in sight, I will value it based on recurrent earnings.

I do not hold any shares in this group, due to personal preference.

කිත්සිරි ද සිල්වා likes this post

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Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:46 pm
Hi FG, Good to hear from you ! Appreciate your views. I understand your thinking  and agree with your views.  
But just as we do not bother about these things, the point i am making / asking is, if we are to consider RIT, CINV, GUAR nature of business of these Investment Trusts, they buy and sell shares. As at the end of a period, those shares are measured / valued and flow through to Income Statement and Balance Sheet. Now, IF all shares of RIT are measured one way (i.e. Realized or unrealized gains on Income Statement) and Only BUKI is measured another way, simply based on MANAGEMENT classification of Asset Class (available for Sale through Profit or Loss or Fair value Gain in Comprehensive Income not accounted for in EPS), and the classification can be changed any time / day by Management, my question is, does this give a fair and accurate picture of their business model or not ?  The second point is why does RIT not Equity Account for its BUKI over 20 % stake ?

So Basically, RIT's over 20 % stake in BUKI, the price movement from time to time is not captured in Earnings (but Comprehensive Income) and neither is  RIT'S share of BUKI 'S Earnings reflected in RIT'S Accounts.

Given their nature of business of dealing in Equities, i think either one should be reflected, ideally EPS should include Comprehensive Income. Otherwise the earnings potential of the stake is "hidden" and does not give a fair and accurate picture of the Assets / Earnings of RIT and its shareholers (CINV & GUAR).

Weather we bother about it or not or whether it makes a difference or not, is immaterial. The point is - Is it Fair ?
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CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000) - Page 2 Empty Re: CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000)

Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:46 pm
Hi FG, Good to hear from you ! Appreciate your views. I understand your thinking  and agree with your views.  
But just as we do not bother about these things, the point i am making / asking is, if we are to consider RIT, CINV, GUAR nature of business of these Investment Trusts, they buy and sell shares. As at the end of a period, those shares are measured / valued and flow through to Income Statement and Balance Sheet. Now, IF all shares of RIT are measured one way (i.e. Realized or unrealized gains on Income Statement) and Only BUKI is measured another way, simply based on MANAGEMENT classification of Asset Class (available for Sale through Profit or Loss or Fair value Gain in Comprehensive Income not accounted for in EPS), and the classification can be changed any time / day by Management, my question is, does this give a fair and accurate picture of their business model or not ?  The second point is why does RIT not Equity Account for its BUKI over 20 % stake ?

So Basically, RIT's over 20 % stake in BUKI, the price movement from time to time is not captured in Earnings (but Comprehensive Income) and neither is  RIT'S share of BUKI 'S Earnings reflected in RIT'S Accounts.

Given their nature of business of dealing in Equities, i think either one should be reflected, ideally EPS should include Comprehensive Income. Otherwise the earnings potential of the stake is "hidden" and does not give a fair and accurate picture of the Assets / Earnings of RIT and its shareholers (CINV & GUAR).

Weather we bother about it or not or whether it makes a difference or not, is immaterial. The point is - Is it Fair ?

කිත්සිරි ද සිල්වා likes this post

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CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000) - Page 2 Empty Re: CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000)

Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:40 pm
Alchemist,

I really do not want to spend time at the forum. ( I  have my life issues too deal with).But I am specially writing a reply as a mark of courtesy to you as you are
requesting feedback on the "fairness" matter.


Here is what I have seen  :

1) If I recall right, other Investment Funds like NAMAL or CANDOR , do report  Realized as well as Unrealized gains on Financial Asserts held at Fair value as Profit/Loss. Yes.

But they actually do not report Earnings per share( unit). 
What they do is they report the earnings as Increase/Decrease in NET ASSETS to Unit Holders. So essentially those unrealized gains/losses on marked to market shares are contributing to NAV ( not epu). 

One can argue  CINV is not a Unit trust, but the concept is the same.
Isn't the BUKI movement reported proportionately into  NAV 
consistent in that regard too?



2) What is different in RIT with BUKI holding is ( vs Shorter term Share trading funds) 


a) as I mentioned  BUKI is an Associate  of RIT ( which you realized later)

b) It is a longer term investment at Associate status.  So they need to follow additional accounting requirements. 



3)   In all fairness,  one can ask the question, 
      is anything  considered as profit or loss  unless one Sells it ?



a) Ex : We can own land. It goes up in market value over the years.
But until we sell it, can we consider it as profit or loss ( for accounting?)

b)   If RIT does not plan to sell BUKI as it is a long term investment  
( an Associate too), can a temporary share price movement be
considered as a real earning? This is what I tried to raise at the very beginning. 



By reporting the BUKI price movement in their NAV. ( which will go up  
when BUKI moves upwards and vice versa) , it shows any Investor  the 
value of the share at the present time any case does it not?


Ps : Do Check your forum  inbox too.

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CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000) - Page 2 Empty Re: CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000)

Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:24 pm
I agree with sls

Business of NAVF, COF is making gains through investing in (mainly) equity securities so unrealised gain is captured in EPS/EPU.

Same with CINV although not much buying and selling happens. Business of BUKI is not that, therefore an investor will not expect to sell an investment in associate as a routine business. If one expects a sale for some reason, they will benefit for sure. That is where one can pick opportunities.

Similarly I want to touch on VONE (which I held till recently). I will look for an appropriate thread for that.
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CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000) - Page 2 Empty Re: CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000)

Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:54 pm
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Hi Alchemist and Forum members,

The BUKI shares held by GUAR/CINV are held as "Investments in Fair value through other comprehensive income". The changes to fair values are not taken into profit or EPS calculation. It is rather accounted as other comprehensive income and taken to revenue reserves in the balance sheet (this, in turn, will affect the NAV). This can be checked in even in the latest financial statements (Q1 20/21) of CINV and GUAR. If there was a change in the accounting policy, it should have been reflected in Q1 20/21, but it is not the case.

It is therefore very clear that changes to the fair value of BUKI will not impact the EPS.

Let me come to the calculations now.

RIT holds 20,438,250 shares of BUKI. The market value of BUKI has increased by Rs. 287.6 per share during the quarter. The total gain that RIT will get due to FV change of BUKI is is 5.878 Bn. This is not a profit to RIT, but an OCI in line with the accounting policy. I want to emphasize again that this gain of 5.878 Bn will not be taken into the profits or EPS of RIT. This gain will however certainly increase the NAV of RIT.

Now let's look at the effective shareholding/ownership of RIT

CINV has 49.95% control on RIT.
GUAR group has 82.98% control on RIT.
CARS group has 56.97% control on RIT
BUKI has 26.02% control on RIT

All these above numbers are published in the respective company annual reports.

Now let's see how the Rs. 5.878 Bn gain that RIT has made will go into each company accounts.

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Kindly note again that these gains will not be taken into EPS of the any of the companies discussed above. These gains will be treated as OCI and will be taken to reserves in the balance sheet. It is therefore will increase the NAV. E.g Buki's net asset value will increase by Rs. 15 per share and no impact to EPS.

The sales of WAPO has not been done yet and therefor no gains from that will be recorded in Q2 20/21 financials.

Palm oil prices have improved YoY and this is a positive for Buki. However it is going to record exchange losses for Q2 as IRD currency has unfavourably changed during the quarter.

I have no idea about what was told at the AGM regarding good hope asia listing and or debt to equity conversion. Please enlighten us on this.

Cheers!

Happy to have helped the members regarding how BUKI share price movement during Q2 will impact the financials of CINV and other related companies.

Now that CINV and GUAR results are released proving the accuracy of the workings and explanations posted above 😀

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CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000) - Page 2 Empty Re: CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000)

Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:40 pm
Value,
I can appreciate your post and effort  on Buki group .
Good post. thanks for that.
I like to give due recognition when people deserve.
(But also whenever I see issues or behaviors of concern I dont
Keep quiet.)
—————-

But as Alchemist once asked , and specially after your latest post,
a question again can invariably arise  what your  motive is?


Let me explain.

From sources,   I know which place you are attached to.

You  see, for you to suddenly show up here at IS just to write on BUKi
group and now say you helped members  .. ( and thats the only
Posts you have done here )  ... you see how this can raise a concern hmm.

kindly note, if you actually read,  before your post,
there were other people too  trying to step by step solve the concern on Alchems BUKI group Eps and Nav prediction.
Issue was identified.

ps: By step by step, I mean to give due respect to Alchemist
to identify the issue without jumping on him as he
has been a long standing person at CSE with decent history.

I like to also give Alchemist due credit that I in the past have not seen him gang up with  parties or “share pushers“ to Smart promote
his shares like many others do in various cyber formats these days.
So, I saw the BUKi post/ predictions of Alchem as a genuine mistake.

This forum is known  For  one thing.
To not let promotion/ demotions or bad behavior to happen without someone Questioning to guide other member correctly. So when Alchem posted such and even when several people Liked his post, there was
atleast one person to have educational debate on such.


Ps: I mean no offence to you. But your sudden BUKI post and especially what you said in your latest post ....... prompted to write something


Last edited by slstock on Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

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CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000) - Page 2 Empty Re: CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000)

Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:25 pm
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Hi Slstock,

So my post has bothered you. First of all, i didnt post any false predictions or anything to degrade anyone. I also have appreciated Alchemist in my other posts in this thread. And I said I won't be dragging the issue any further. I was waiting for the results to be released to comment here further.

How do you all expect me to contribute if I get questions like what's your motive after my every post?. Now the results of CINV and GUAR have proved what I posted are true and accurate predictions. So what motive has to be there for me to post the truth?

There was no hidden intention or agenda. I am not part of any gang here or elsewhere. I am part of other forums but rarely write anywhere.

I can contribute only if I can help by doing so.

I haven't said anywhere CINV hasn't done well if you think I am demoting this share. I only posted predictions about how the results will be.

For me also CINV is undervalued - I didn't argue on this. I believe CINV should be valued based on NAV and not based on EPS. The net asset value has improved significantly compared to June 20 end.



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CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000) - Page 2 Empty Re: CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000)

Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:57 pm
After a decade online  nothing ( almost)  bothers me.

I wrote in detail already the premise of my post.
I said  positive things about you.
If I recall right I had reped you silently too
for that detailed post you did.

You discarded the positive I said.
Only took only it negatively.
If you read with open mind without taking it personal
You/Anyone can see why I said what I said very clearly.

Even more clearly Now .....
There is difference of someone appearing once in blue moon vs  a frequent poster. You need to agree on such. Then also  to Self say you are helping  the forum. Then before that too to hint about Alchem post misleading people.

Over the years there were many misleading Posts in the  forum with false stats and facts to promote to pump and dump their holdings in short term.
I myself stood/stand up against such  for decades and several people. Some without clarifying
the Questions asked  or correcting the issue instead Decided to move to other venues to gang up
and continue their needs.

When many such incidents happened ( you said you read this forum Silently right ) I have  not seen you here make posts to correct the issues ( or stand
up aginst the wrong) Like you did for BUKI group.

With your good capacity I noticed, am sure you could have helped in those so many Cases. But you didnt. But suddenly for Buki post..you did. So the question asked is not a Mystery.

I hope it it clearer why Alchemist asking you first of your motive  ( which I didnt ask but repped you) but why now I ask after youR latest post saying you are helping members here.

ps:
I do not hold Buki group for investment. ( I might trade if ops come)
I probably never will unless some drastic changes in that group happen.
Though alchem likes I have issues with groups were the big owners dont  care about small holders.

I already indicated  before for CiNV/GUAR (and all other investment trust to that matter ) NAV is more reflectively important as eps is variable during bear and bull periods.
So I agree with that (as it has been always.)

If you  read,  you will see I tried to point that out in this thread itself for Cinv/ Guar.


Last edited by slstock on Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:24 pm
Super prediction value. Keep it up your good work.

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Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:39 am
Btw Value ,

What I want to say finally is below

I see talent in you.
That Buki post was very good as I said. .


But, If you really want to help  the mass , consistently stand up  aginst all incorrect or Manipulative posts at all places ( which will be abundant  as market moves) . ( Your Buki/Cinv is the one off post I seen.)

Hardly any people exist who consistently stand up againt posts with agendas to give the public truthful service.

Do  continously Fight against  any wrong info or manipulation in time to come
at all places you write  even at the risk of being unpopular with the perpetrators. then you would

Then with consistency, you will earn my and many other peoples respect and would have helped CSE.


All the best

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CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000) - Page 2 Empty Re: CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000)

Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:40 pm
Develop a Thick Skin and hang in there.  Very Happy


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

How do you all expect me to contribute if I get questions like what's your motive after my every post?.



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Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:37 pm
More  than deveoping a thick skin, trying to  understand a  point explained will help to avoid upsets and misunderstandings.
It might even  help one future to Grow to be even better!

Sri lankans needs to be more broad minded and also ready to Accept  questions  and constructive criticism.

Many only read on the surface too.
—————————————————————


A story that comes to mind.


One day a  new (young) Sudda came to a “symposium” where people with experience on a certain subject was sharing ideas.

He ( the young guy) made a speech and what he said  appeared to  many as a smartass. there was ha ho going around.

Its not the content he presented that was any issue,  but the way he said it. ( specially as he wad a newbie to that place)

After the first half of the event,I saw  an older person trying to explain to young sudda. Young Sudda in the heat of the moment got upset with him too I observed. That second guy was genuinely trying to help.

Long story short , something changed in the young Sudda during the short break.

When he started the 2nd part of his speech, the young guy started off by saying Something unique.

Everyone started clapping him.

Can you guess what he said?

——————————

There is a reason why developed counries develop ;j
It nothing to do with race , talent or skin color.


————————

Ps: I spent all this time ( which I cant afford to spend)
to explain again and again as I cared to see a positive end result without twists and turns.

.Also it was my duty to clear Alchemist as I know he intentionly did not try to manipulate anything.

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CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000) - Page 2 Empty Re: CEYLON INVESTMENT PLC (CINV.N0000)

Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:59 am
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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Hi Slstock,

So my post has bothered you. First of all, i didnt post any false predictions or anything to degrade anyone. I also have appreciated Alchemist in my other posts in this thread. And I said I won't be dragging the issue any further. I was waiting for the results to be released to comment here further.

How do you all expect me to contribute if I get questions like what's your motive after my every post?. Now the results of CINV and GUAR have proved what I posted are true and accurate predictions. So what motive has to be there for me to post the truth?

There was no hidden intention or agenda. I am not part of any gang here or elsewhere. I am part of other forums but rarely write anywhere.

I can contribute only if I can help by doing so.

I haven't said anywhere CINV hasn't done well if you think I am demoting this share. I only posted predictions about how the results will be.

For me also CINV is undervalued -  I didn't argue on this. I believe CINV should be valued based on NAV and not based on EPS. The net asset value has improved significantly compared to June 20 end.




Welcome Value. Good points. First strong post caused few doubts- that is nature. Good luck on your analysis.
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